MUNA’s journey has always been about bringing to light the complex, messy, ecstatic realities of life, and with their fourth album, Dancing On The Wall, they’ve never been sharper, darker or more exhilarating. Emerging from the sparkly, confetti-strewn heights of their 2022 self-titled record, MUNA now channel the raw, anxious and sweat-soaked energy of living in a city of unrelenting heat, a corrupted world wrought by political tension (Los Angeles), and the quieter and more personal pressures of millennial precarity and heartache in these uncertain times. 

As a certified MUNA gay, introduced to the band in 2020 by my ex over bottles of Pinot Noir and lockdown cigarettes, I was extremely excited to chat to them. In July 2026, we spoke about the overlap of their astrological charts, Meg from Hercules being a bisexual icon, and why people think basslines and drum beats mean songs can’t be sad.

All images: Dean Bradshaw

Dani Leever: Hello, MUNA! Lovely to be chatting. I’m a big fan of Dancing On The Wall; I DJ’d the Melbourne listening party for the album’s release at a queer bar here, so it’s cool to be now discussing it with you all.

Dancing On The Wall is now two months old now, how has it been watching it come into the world?

Katie Gavin: Oh, man. It’s funny, like two months; it’s just a baby. But also, in this day and age, it like feels like that’s a long time.

We’re feeling really good and grateful. I feel like the people who this album seems to have touched the most are a lot of the OG MUNA fans: people very invested in what MUNA has been for a long time.

That feels really sweet, because I think we intentionally wanted to like, circle back to the sound that excited us at the beginning. And at the same time, there are a lot of new people who have come into our world and are getting kind of a reintroduction to like, the core tenets of MUNA. 

So it’s sweet, whether it’s somebody who’s been with us this whole time or somebody new.

The other thing is that we’ve played a lot of shows; we just did a series of residencies in LA, New York and London. We’re about to do some festivals before we do our fall tour in North America and Europe.

Getting to do some shows right when the album came out, I think was really good for our mental health, because it connected us to the real human beings that invest so much in this project.

DL: Yeah, absolutely! I was gonna say it’s been a really big two months since it came out for MUNA. It was Pride month, you were in Playboy giving gay sex tips, you sung about Liza Minnelli in Meg Stalter’s song ‘GAY’, announced that Jesus Christ is being resurrected during one of your concerts… I don’t know which one, but probably safe to go to all of them just in case. 

So something for me about this album is that it’s got a real emotional core of both horniness and rage. I think that queer horniness and queer rage in their own rights contain strong elements of resistance, especially given everything going on with attacks on queer rights and broader rising fascism. Can you speak to why horniness and rage are so pivotal in this album? 

Josette Maskin: Maybe it’s kind of hard to say from a storytelling perspective, because it’s not that we went into this process with the idea of making a concept album or anything like that.

I think that horniness – well, sexuality in general – and rage are both libidinal, kind of charged impulses, that come from a mysterious part of ourselves. Perhaps that’s kind of what brings them together.

They’re also like acts of creation; rage is a generative emotion to have, as opposed to anger or resentment. Rage can make things happen and change things, in good or bad ways.

I don’t think it was necessarily intentional, but of course, as you’re implying, it’s based on our lived experiences as people living through a very challenging time, being relatively young and wanting to find – within all of this mess that we’re surrounded by in the world currently – a will to live. 

DL: Absolutely. They’re very viseral, passion-fuelled experiences in that way.

So, the breakdown on ‘Eastside Girls’ is such an album highlight. It feels to me like a sapphic ‘We Didn’t Start The Fire’. And oh my god, rhyming “ren faire” with “gender confirmation care”, I was like, That’s voice of a generation type shit. Can you talk to me about blending queer humour within your lyrics – starting from the early MUNA days?

KG: Yeah, it’s funny, I feel like I actually don’t know how much we did that on the first album, because I was like, very serious at the time. We were always silly with each other, but also just so down in the dumps.

I think it started on Saves The World where [we were] wanting to reflect some of the rapport that we have between the three of us. We all have a similar dark humour. There’s a song on our second album called ‘[Good News] Ya‐Ya Song’, the line in the chorus is like, The good news is, if you don’t like life, they say it doesn’t last so long. It’s a joke about death.

[Since then], it’s just been more natural that we want to try to get more and more of an honest depiction of ourselves into the music. Life is hard, and [our music] is a big coping mechanism that we have if we’re going through something tough.

Some of my favourite songwriters are very funny. Like, I think Kacey Musgraves is so funny, and I think she really shines when she does that. So I’m probably also trying to copy people that I admire.

DL: For sure. I think this album definitely harks back to the early sound of MUNA in some ways more than others; it’s still got those sapphic yearning lyrics, but with the real dancefloor beat. Katie, I loved your TikTok where you were like, People are saying that this album is less sad, but that’s just on Miss Prozac.

KG: To me it’s not less sad, but maybe that’s because I don’t realise, you know, how bad it once was.

JM: I guess it was really bad, I’m trying to think back…

KG: You know what I also think it is? I think sometimes people get confused about drums. Like if something’s just synth or acoustic guitar on its own, then it’s ‘sad’.

JM: [Laughs] I guess ‘Buzzkiller’ doesn’t have drums, and that’s so sad.

Naomi McPherson: I have to say, I think there’s a sort of media comprehension skillset that is lacking in certain spaces of the internet. I reckon more people than not can’t understand subtext or something. [laughs]

JM: I guess if everything was in comparison to [MUNA’s debut album] About U, then [this album being less sad] would be true.

KG: A lot of people are comparing this to our self-titled album.

NM: That’s recency bias.

JM: I don’t think we had developed the artistry to be able to hold both things at the same time. I agree with you guys though, I don’t understand. I guess ‘Buzzkiller’ doesn’t have drums, and that makes it real sad.

NM: I’m like, ‘Dancing on the Wall’ is sad! It’s a sad song! It just has the word ‘dancing’ in it.

DL: I guess people are like, ‘Yeeessss!’ But not actually listening to the lyrics.

NM: [Laughs] I don’t get it. But yeah, we hold space for those who get it, and those who might need teaching. [laughs again]

KG: Whatever their interpretation is!

DL: Well a song like ‘Mary Jane’, hearing that, I’m like, I’ve had friends in that relationship. Oooof. It’s a gut punch, but it’s got synth and drums?

JM: I think of that and the song ‘Crying on the Bathroom Floor’. They’re both devastating songs, but one title has the word ‘crying’ in it. [laughs]

NM: They’re like, Oh, ‘crying’? That’s the sad song. Got it.

JM: Yeah. [laughs] But then like, Weed is fun! 

KG: We’ve actually made like, so many disclaimers about this album that we didn’t have to make, but I do kind of feel bad when stoners are like, It kind of made me sad that they have this song.

NM: People are like, legit mad!

KG: I’m like, [in a Jennifer Coolidge type voice] This song is… it’s about heroin. But we couldn’t put that in the song, ’cause we’re a pop band. [laughs]

DL: [Laughs] It’s interesting, because so many of your really sad songs still have that heavy bass – like a thumping, get me to the dancefloor feeling. That’s something harking back to when you released ‘I Know A Place’. That song is so heavy, beautiful and emotional, but it’s got this really optimistic sound. Upbeat or sad, dancing is a really big part of the MUNA discography. People often refer to the MUNA concert dancefloor as being like church. Can you talk to me about the sanctity of a queer dancefloor, or a queer space connected through music?

JM: I mean, I don’t know about the sanctity, but I think it’s just us wanting to create a space that we wish we had when we were younger. I don’t know places like a MUNA show that would have existed for me as a teenager.

We’ve always been interested in how your body actually reacts to having something to move to. There’s so much catharsis and actual movement [that can be] attached to emotional release, as opposed to just the mind dealing with that emotional release, so it’s always been a really integral part of what we’ve been interested in as a band.

When we first started, we played one show where Katie was on an MPC [an advanced sampler and synth machine], Naomi and I both had guitars and we didn’t have any live drums, and it was horrible. You know, we were just, like, fucking standing there. [laughs] I think it made a really big impact on everything we did post-that. You know, all of our trauma has enlightened every decision.

KG: Never again.

JM: Yeah, never again. Never again do I want people to just be standing there watching us.

NM: Never again.

JM: But, you know, every decision that we’ve ever made is called never again. Until… Maybe again. 

DL: Never again, but maybe again sometimes, it depends. 

KG: The next album.

DL: Hot off the press, that’s the title of the next MUNA album: Never again, but maybe, depending on how things are going. 

Speaking of sadness being a part of the album, I was extremely surprised by this, but you three have two Capricorns and a Pisces in your sun signs. The fact that there’s no fire in the sun signs, I thought was really interesting, maybe because there’s this real, like, beautiful fiery outwardness to MUNA. 

JM: There’s no fire in any of our charts!

DL: You’re kidding!

NM: None at all, it’s really crazy.

KG: We’re earth, air and water. But mainly water and earth.

DL: That’s very interesting. Do you feel like you’re the typical 2x Cap and 1x Pisces sun sign combo? 

JM, the Pisces: Well, they decided we were working the moment we started the band, so I would say yes for my experience. [laughs]

KG: Yeah. I also think it’s very Cap that, you know, we have this small crew that runs super deep. There’s a small circle and we’re really loyal to each other.

And then we have these kind of cute overlaps: like Jo’s a Pisces sun, I’m a Pisces moon, and I feel like that’s the watery-ness of it all. And then, Jo, what part of your chart is Taurus? 

JM: Naomi and I are both Taurus rising.

DL: Oooh, that’s fun. 

JM: Mmmhm.

NM: We both like… nice things. And good smells. And nice hotel rooms.

KG: I think it also comes across in the way that you guys finish productions together.

NM: Does it?

KG: Yeah, ’cause I think you’re both interested in building the texture of things.

JM: We don’t want it to sound like shit. [laughs]

KG: You’re like, I would like it to be done!

NM: Interesting, Mrs Stretchington. I like it, keep going.

KG: [Laughs] That’s it.

NM: And, I’m a Gemini moon and Katie is a Gemini rising. So we’re all linked.

KG: I think about Gemini for some reason as being fire-adjacent. Like, fuck around and find out.

DL: I agree. My partner is always like, I’ll come out as non-binary before I come out as Gemini. There is stigma. 

NM: [Laughs] I mean, there really is, and I don’t think it’s fair.

JM: Geminis are my favourite people!

KG: The thing is, people are mad at Geminis because they broke their heart.

JM: I literally don’t get it.

NM: We were talking to someone recently, and they were like, Geminis get all the smoke that “blank” should be getting… 

JM: That Capricorns should be getting.

NM: Or Scorpios? Maybe Scorpios.

KG: I think it was Capricorns…

DL: Maybe both? Okay, I’ve got one last question. What was the first queer-coded cartoon character you had a crush on, and why was it Shego from Kim Petras? Wait, I mean from Kim Possible. 

KG: [Laughs] Shego from Kim Petras.

NM: [Laughs] That’s a great one.

JM: You know, I didn’t really have one. Maybe Megara actually, I take that back. From Hercules.

NM: Oh yeah, Megara. She’s bisexual, I don’t care what anyone says.

DL: And so is Hercules, really.

NM: Meg’s got too much attitude to be fully straight, she’s like, Men are trash. 

KG: Imagine Hannah Einbinder as Megara in live action Hercules.

NM: That’s so huge. She’d be perfect.

DL: Elliot Page as Hercules maybe?

NM: Cute, love it.

KG: Oh my god, come on. I would be interested in… a role.

NM: Yeah. The first cartoon character… you know what, in my household, cartoon characters were looked down on, to be honest.

KG: Didn’t you watch Arthur, because it was on PBS?

NM: Oh yeah, I only watched Arthur.

KG: Okay, so if you had to have a crush on a character from Arthur, who would it be?

NM: I didn’t really have a crush on any of them, they’re animals. [laughs] I’m also like, way too stupid. You know what? I didn’t have a crush on this individual, but I was like, Damn, this really is hitting? Mulan.

DL: Hell yeah. 

KG: Oh yeah.

NM: Mulan hits in gender ways, for sure. Like, that song [‘I’ll Make a Man Out of You’] is fucking crazy. You know?

DL: Trans storyline, 100 per cent. 

KG: For cartoons, I liked the girl from Rocket Power.

DL: Oh my god, yes. 

NM: Oh totally. Reggie?

KG: There was recently this documentary about Pat, the Saturday Night Live character. Legitimately, that was my childhood crush. Like, I watched that movie every Friday.

NM: “It’s Pat!”

DL: Oh my god, I mean the history of Pat is so wild. 

KG: It’s really crazy.

NM: What’s that show where they… God, the majority of this interview is just us trying to remember things. [laughs]

KG: Work In Progress! Have you seen that episode, Dani?

DL: Yes, my god. I love Work in Progress. 

NM: Yes, Work in Progress. Thank you! There’s an amazing episode of Work in Progress with Julia Sweeney where they talk about Pat.

DL: Oh yeah, of course! She goes on to talk about that really complicated legacy of Pat with Abby [McEnany].

NM: Oh that episode is so good.

DL: Okay, I’m getting the ol’ “wrap it up” message. It was so lovely to chat. I don’t know if you can tell, but I’m a really big fan. 

NM: Thank you for your nice questions.

KG: Hopefully we come to Australia soon and we’ll see you soon.

DL: Absolutely. I’ll be at every single show just in case Jesus Christ himself appears. 

KG: Just in case.

NM: If he gets resurrected in Australia, that’d be the funniest fucking thing in the world. Maybe it’d hit even harder.

Dancing on the Wall is out now.